Steven Molteno – Could almost imagine these on a steep shale riverbank in the Overberg.

Bruce Bayer – Aren’t these clump formers usually associated with riverine or stream defined rock slopes and faces? While maculata has the options to be a solitary plant or a clump former. Herbacea can be a clump former in the absence of a watercourse while at Wolfkloof in a gorger situation it is fairly non-clumping. I come to insist that science has truly led us away from understanding anything about a conscious creation. Mechanistic answers do not hold truth and we are not open enough to be aware of it?

Steven Molteno – True. Same with Tulista I guess, comparing minima growing large & solitary on hills (“retusa-minimas”!) vs. minima growing in clumps along river-banks (“turgida-minimas”!) I’ve become interested in which of the Haworthia northerners might be (relatively) closest to the retusoid grouping of the Overberg. Reticulata has many analogies with the river-born retusoids (turgida), not least in terms of habitat/substrate etc. The translucent grouping of mucronata/cooperi etc. sometimes seems to show similarities to them too maybe? If it’s not my imagination. I’ve even seen photos of some cooperi/cymbiformis in the eastern cape that I could easily mistake for chubby turgida of the Overberg. But going in a different direction. I wonder about the nortieri/marumiana groupings and whether they link to the retusoids too, via maculata perhaps.

Bruce Bayer – Of course – there is no doubt in my mind that something separated off reticulata/herbacea/maculata from the retusa/mirabilis lot. I have also considered the possibility that maculata is the link of that combined system to nortieri. There is a mucronata on the Anysberg pass slopes that is inseparable from cymbiformis except flower wise. So it gets extremely convoluted because I can see cymbiformis and cooperi as a single system – inseparable from mucronata – inseparable from arachnoidea. Marumiana seems to have its ties to monticoloa – to then angustifolia, while flowerwise angustifolia and variegata are inseparable. There are just tons of missing pieces (and not so missing pieces). We just get sidetracked by truly absurd opinions about things like ‘groenewaldii’ – as a plum-picking opportunity by those with heads in the sand!!!

Steven Molteno – The multitude of links in the Haworthia lattice can leave one quite dizzy. I’ve sometimes found it helpful to (over)emphasise to myself the different types of linkage. Mainly, the distinction between confluences (ie. links through hybridisation) and divergences (ie. links through integradation). Put simply – coming together vs. moving apart. It’s one of the few ways I can get any sort of picture in my head, as we’re probably dealing with a multi-dimensional lattice of clines that’s nearly impossible to untangle. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the strength & nature of the link between: nortieri (+maculata etc.), and marumiana (+archeri etc.)

Bruce Bayer – Both those relationships are really speculative and they revolve around the oddities of the Hex Valley and eastwards as far as SE Laingsburg. There is just not enough information from which to draw any better conclusion. As you know from Astroloba, that area holds mystery and H. marxii contributes, but so does pulchella and wittebergensis. Dimorpha??? There are at least 5 populations assigned to marumiana in the western Karoo and then there is the problem of Reddii in the east. None of this is adequately supported in the way that can be argued for the retusoid synthesis. Nearly every botanist exploring these higher points in the Karoo fail to report a marumiana-like presence.

Steven Molteno – That area does indeed hold a lot of Easter eggs. To mix the metaphor, the Wagendrift formation especially seems to be a museum of weird relics. H. marxii is almost entirely confined to some narrow strips of Wagendrift rock; H. wittebergensis is mostly (not entirely) also on this formation, and that new plant recently found (H. grenieri I think it’s called) is too of course. I’ve no idea why that’s the case though.

So would you agree that, in terms of relationships between groupings:

1. H. maculata is probably closer to nortieri (relatively!) than it is to marumiana?
2. That archeri is more closely linked to marumiana than to nortieri? I do seem to recall reading in one of the Updates that there are also (weaker?) links between archeri and both nortieri and pulchella (or have I imagined that?)
3. That there is potentially also a connection between the nortieri group and the marumiana group, but that this is highly speculative as you say?

Okay I think I understand what you mean:

1. nortieri cannot be connected both to maculata and to marumiana (as you say, diametrically opposed), so you believe it must be either one connection or the other, but not both. Based on your earlier comment then, I assume that you posit the connection only to be: maculata to nortieri (if a connection there is)
2. Understood. Though I cannot help seeing similarities between pulchella and herbacea (& rossouwii)
3. Well, your answer to 2. serves as an answer to 3. as well.
   Afterthought … I do know how unreliable flowering time can be, as a diagnostic criterion for tweezing apart Haworthia taxa, so that’s fully acknowledged. But it’s still a bit interesting that some of these northerners are +-Spring flowering, e.g. nortieri (Sept-Oct?),maculata (Sept-Oct-Nov?), notabilis (Sept for some populations?) and that marumiana is apparently late-Summer flowering (Jan-Feb), just like the variegata-floribunda grouping.

Bruce Bayer – No, maculata to nortieri and nortieri to marumiana are diametricaly opposed.
Yes to first part. The archeri nortieri link would be via Hex Pass and very weak. Pulchella simply stands alone. 3.What do you mean nortieri group? when already norieri to marumiana is via archeri? I think we could start again from scratch. We are trying to establish what the systems are – if you now have decided what you think a species might be. Nortieri appears to me to be an independent system. There is a possibility of some connection to arachnoidea although they do occur in very close proximity in specific instances. The Hex valley plants just means I can’t exclude other possibilities. I see no connection between herbacea and pulchella and the flowers of the former place it firmly with the retusoids. There is no doubt rossouwii comes into the retusoid picture but indirectly. I would guard against trying to hard to establish connections like this other than as a driver to find evidence to support the process. I suggest you clear your own mind about “species” and recognise too that a mechanistic answer may not be available. ♦